Does anyone have any idea???

[Deb]

but I say my prayers and try to do good and that's better than any witches.

I'm sixth generation and very, very proud of my heritage. My grandmothers, my aunts and my ancestors were all good people.....many of them were healers and midwives who practiced their craft in a way that saved lives in areas where doctors were not available or affordable. I'd say that would be classified as "doing good" and they were certainly witches, as am I.

Please understand that I am not flaming and I certainly don't wish to cause any ill feelings in our online community. However, I know that there are many witches, Wiccans and pagans who are members here, and statements that Wiccans are odd or witches are bad is extremely offensive. It's the same as making any insulting comment about races, religions or ethnic groups.

Everyone has varied experiences and all I will say about that is that there is always a potential for negative experiences when someone attempts contact with the spirit world or practices the Craft without being prepared or educated in it's dynamics. It would be the same as someone who has never driven a car being behind the wheel on the interstate during rush hour. Without education and training, there is a potential for hazard in any situation. And, as with any group that is comprised of human beings, one may encounter those whose motives are negative. However, it is to be hoped that society has progessed enough that we no longer brand people based on isolated incidents, or the actions of a very few.

Again, please don't construe my reply as a flame or as a challenge for debate. I'm simply pointing out that consideration and respect is due to every member of our online community regardless of their heritage or belief structure.

Deb

[Hanny]

I agree! I am not a witch or something like that (I think) but I agree with you Deb, as far I could understand what you are saying.

[havanaholly]

I appreciate our diversity, which enriches what we each bring to this and any other hobby we enjoy, but it would no more occur to me question or want to know someone's spiritual orientation than it would their sexual orientation. I think this particular discussion is veering off the topic of miniatures, however, and might better be served in the "chit chat" area.

[hydroped]

Wiccan stuff creeps me out and all the people I've met or heard of are kind of .....odd?

I have to say that some Christians I've met are kind of odd - some are Down right Scarey!! - But some really and truly are good folks - It's the same with Witches and other Pagans. Most are good folks. In fact I'd have to say I've seen less prejudice, and more acceptance and understanding for others by the Pagan communities than in any other group of people I've ever met. If you think that "all" the Wiccans you've met are odd then I probably have to say you have no clue just how many you've actually met - most of us don't wear it stamped on our foreheads.

witches,witches. If there were witches.Want to be a witch?Know the price you'd have to pay?

Why yes I do actually. And if someone is going to point fingers and ask if Pagans know the price of being Pagan.. then I'd have to ask what that person actually knows of the Pagan religions.. or if they're getting their information about it from Christians who are afraid of it and therefore biased? Anyone can stand on a pulpit or street corner or any place and say how horrible something is - that's just plain old-fasioned prejudice and it doesn't matter if it's about a religion or the color of someone's skin - prejudice is prejudice and yes Wicca is a religion and I think the forum Pagans deserve the same respect that they show to the forum Christians - how many posts have you all read here saying how weird, or odd Christans are or how Christianity just creeps us out??.. Seriously is this a religion forum or a miniatures one? - how about some respect for all miniaturists regardless of race, color, creed or religion?

...it would no more occur to me question or want to know someone's spiritual orientation than it would their sexual orientation...

Holly I agree 100%! As far as I was led to believe this is a place to discuss miniatures, not politics, not racism and not religion even though religion has often come up before - always by the same kinds of people who basically say 'my religion teaches this is evil' When a question comes up on a forum saying "do you believe in ghosts?" wouldn't it be simpler to say no or to not answer it then to go into a my religion teaches speech? I don't believe a question has ever been asked regarding what religion everyone is - and how can prostulating one's religion on a miniature forum be condusive to miniature fellowship? A person's religion is a very private, very personal thing between them and their Diety/Dieties. But when people start making uninformed and clearly biased comments about it then it becomes more than a right to step up and say this is wrong - it becomes a necessity that those of us who are able - stand up and speak for the rest who can't. Please - can't we keep this community about miniatures and leave any prejudices and especially religious bashing at the door?

-David

[ekcbbug]

I guess I am really open minded on my belief systems and very non judgemental of any religion for one simple reason. If you think about it the Christian faith always teaches there way is the right way and that is in every type of Christianity, be it Catholics, Protestants, or even the Jewish faith.

Ok, hypothetically lets say we die and they are right but God looks down and says "ok so I see the Jewish faith is the only true religion here and anyone who can not accept that is not allowed here. They don't have to believe it but if their life has shown me that they were judgemental and very prejudice against Judism and/or any other religion, then they will not be allowed in my kingdom. However if they have at least done the service of allowing each their own form of believe without a bias, then all are accepted."

Where do you stand then? And how do we know that would not or could not happen? In Wicca and other sects of the craft, all are openly accepting to any religious order. So given the scenario above, God would allow witches in but not die hard Christians who have always been bias towards any other faith but their own?

Based on that idea alone, I do not feel it is in my place to say who is right or who is wrong to begin with but only to learn all I can in my time on this big rock. Yes, I've studied many relgions including the Muslim faith and the interesting thing is that they all come down to one basic thing. Each and every religion believes in one basic "god" like person, be it alla, budah, the dali lama or god, all have some sort of higher power.

Isn't that alone enough to allow acceptance of any and all religions whether we agree with them or not? Notice I did not say agree with them, I only said accept them and allow them the same respect you allow your own.

I never dreamed asking about the Charmed house would raise so many witchcraft debates. I'm sorry that wasn't the intention at all.

Kay

[havanaholly]

As far as I was led to believe this is a place to discuss miniatures, not politics, not racism and not religion even though religion has often come up before

this is a place to discuss miniatures, not politics, not racism and not religion

A person's religion is a very private, very personal thing between them and their Diety/Dieties...can't we keep this community about miniatures and leave any prejudices and especially religious bashing at the door?

Exactly my point. I still think any discussion NOT related to miniatures belongs in the "Cit Chat" forum, and if Y'all want to discuss comparative religions, please continue there.

[hydroped]

Exactly my point. I still think any discussion NOT related to miniatures belongs in the "Cit Chat" forum, and if Y'all want to discuss comparative religions, please continue there.

Understood - but my hope is that the conversations regarding religion and which is right and which is wrong and which people are weird or evil - will be completely discontinued and disallowed even in Chit Chat since it does nothing to bring miniaturists together and only draws dividing lines creating different groups of miniaturists. I'm a firm believer that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but that no one should be allowed to bash, harrass, or force thier prejudices on others on a forum that is dedicated to bringing people togther for things such as hobbies and enjoyment. Prejudice of any kind is non-condusive to having a friendly, open, safe, family oriented and hobby oriented forum.

And Kay, dont' even think twice about it - this isn't the first time this has come up which makes alot of people afraid to post about things like this - and no one should be afraid to post something as benign as a thread about which house is this or how do I make a crystal ball holder or a set of Tarot cards for my Witch scene. That's exactly what a miniatures forum is for - making and talking about miniatures. And it shouldn't matter if those miniatures are of Igloos, castles, houses, wild west salloons, cathedrals or a preacher's house or a witch's house.

-David

[havanaholly]

conversations regarding religion and which is right and which is wrong and which people are weird or evil - will be completely discontinued and disallowed even in Chit Chat

IMHO judgmental posts in areas so personal verge so closely on flaming as to be automatically disallowed, and if the monitors miss such a post, that's what that little "report" button is for.

[hydroped]

IMHO judgmental posts in areas so personal verge so closely on flaming as to be automatically disallowed, and if the monitors miss such a post, that's what that little "report" button is for.

Unforuntatly the report button only works if the people you're reporting it to have taken a firm anti -descrimination stance. The last time I asked people not to refer to one of my religions holidays as "Evil" I was told that my religion being "Evil" was an opinion and anyone had a right to post their opinion (again I don't see how that promotes harmony, peace, consideration or community) and that furthermore I had no right to ask people to be respectful towards other cultures and religions. The fact that I'm respectful of other people's religions and holidays didn't seem to matter because (as was said by the administration) my refering a non-christian religious day of importance as a "holiday" was offensive. So unfortunately using the report button does no good when bashing anothers religion is deemed "opinion" and acceptable behavior. I really hope that seeing there are other people out there (besides me) who feel that it's inappropriate will change their minds.

- - Sorry for continuing to be off topic here but I see that it's bothered more than just me this time and I really am hoping that religious discrimination and bashing will come to be viewd as seriously as racial discrimination and bashing is. It really seems unfair that the 'moral majority' can say inflamatory things but when the minority asks them politely to be respectful of thier minority group we're told we don't have that right and we're the ones being offensive by asking.

-David

[heidiiiii]

Okay first of all...Blessed be and Amen for Nyquil! I am glad I was delirious, sick, and hailing taxis in NYC and didnt see this post earlier...

What started out as an innocent question about Charmed and a mini house blew wayyy out of proportion.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. We were all given the option of free will..Came with our Kit! I was taught and I have passed this on to my own children that if you dont have anything nice to say...dont say anything...at all..

That is all I am gonna say on this subject.. Gonna go take a shot of cherry Nyquil and go back to watching cooking shows. :groucho:

[goodteach0]

I have one thing to say about other people's religions, belief's etc. I don't care what they believe as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

goodteach0

[Mini Man]

I just recently read this topic in its entirety and decided to move it to the chit chat forum. Before I did so, I moved it to the moderator queue so that I could gather my thoughts, because it's obvious that I need to intervene. There are two areas of this topic that I would like to address to prevent a similar situation from occurring in the future, and they are as follows:

RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION

As our community continues to grow, we must keep in mind that there are different races, religions, political ideologies, disabilities, ethnic backgrounds and cultures that we need to be respectful of. I wouldn't think a topic about the house on a TV show could take such a wrong turn, but some comments made here, whether intentional or not, have offended members of our community.

I have gone out of my way to make this forum inviting for all miniaturist. I've been operating under the assumption that the best way to accomplish this is to avoid censorship, not only in topics like this, but even when it comes to negative comments about my products or the promotion of a competitive brand. There are a few websites that I've deleted links to, but other than that, the Greenleaf presence here is transparent.

In reviewing this topic, it seemed that after Deb politely pointed out that she found comments here to be offensive, they stopped. Again, I don't think anyone was intentionally trying to insult any ones beliefs, and honestly, I don't know how to determine what is offensive without a dialogue such as this. It's unfortunate that people were offended, but thanks to Deb, I'm a little more informed and a lot more sensitive to what was said. Now that our community is the size of a Village and includes members from around the world, it is inevitable that remarks will be made that some might find offensive.

I would like to think we can continue with our current policy toward censorship. I believe that once we start controlling what people are allowed to discussed, it can quickly progress into something ugly. With this in mind, I would ask those that are offend by a topic to inform the community in the same manner that Deb has so we can be enlightened to our difference which hopefully will prevent a similar situation from occurring in the future. If the topic continues in the same direction after someone declares it to be offensive, report it to me and I will intervene as necessary. The method for reporting situations like this leads us the next area to be addressed.

USING THE REPORT BUTTON

By the very nature of a Community such as ours, members and the moderating team often become friendly with each other. I think this is great, but unfortunately, it compromises the traditional concept of authority associated with such a position. I have grown close to many of you and I know from my personal experience, it is sometimes difficult to determine what is a friendly debate or an official request. Therefore, moving forward, I would like everyone to use the REPORT button to indicate a post with offensive content. Using this method insures that all the moderators, including myself, will be notified of the post in questions. This also insures that it will be looked at with scrutiny rather then an invitation to join in on a heated debate.

In closing, I'd like to make clear why this post was put in the moderating queue (invisible) for the last day. In contradiction to what I may have said just a few short paragraphs ago, one thing I won't tolerate is an attack on the people who have volunteer their time for the good of the community… the Moderating Team. As I mentioned, I receive notice when anyone pushes that REPORT button and at no time has it been use to reported a post about bashing anyone's religion. Additionally, there have been claims that some members are afraid to post anything in defense of their religion in fear that they would be ban from the forum simply because of their beliefs. I find this hard to swallow because that would mean that I failed horribly in my mission to build an open community. There has never been any agenda except what you see, and contrary to the recent rumors, there was never any threat issued about banning members over what transpired in this thread.

I hope that we can put this issue behind us and move forward perhaps a little more aware of our diversity.

Thanks!

Dean